This topic contains 40 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by 
Gray 5 years, 4 months ago.
-
Posts
-
Excellent question! I wanted to ask this one myself, as I struggle hard to keep just 3 hotbars used in my client for any class (2 class-related + 1 shared, with macroses, sprint, teleport, consumables etc). So let’s discuss which abilities are great and which are useless! I’ll bring here a well-known quote from Miqo statistics which I don’t quite understand:
1. Ingenuity I or II: 38.9% to average HQ rate 2. Byregot's Blessing: 33.3% 3. Maker's Mark: 26.6% 4. Flawless Synthesis: - (required for Maker's Mark) 5. Comfort Zone: 20.2% 6. Piece by Piece: 13.0% 7. Tricks of the Trade: 9.8% 8. Steady Hand II: 6.5% 9. Innovation: 4.4% 10. Reclaim: - Hasty Touch: 2.0% Careful Synthesis II: 1.2% Rapid Synthesis: 1.3% Rumination: 0.0014% Waste Not I: 0.00072% Waste Not II: 0% Manipulation I: 0% Careful Synthesis I: 0% Muscle Memory: 0% (3.7% when no Maker's Mark)Most of it makes sense, but there are exceptions. First, I just don’t understand these percentages (i.e. these are percentages of WHAT?), so I just put my own ones – approximate percentages of crafts I am performing in the endgame which use this or that skill. My list of shared abilities (for lvl70) looks like this:
1. Byregot’s Blessing – 100%. EVER useful. Period.
2. Steady Hand II – 95%: ever useful, in almost every craft except for lvl60 collectables which can be done with Steady Hand I + Standard Touch.
3. Comfort Zone – 95%: same as above.
4. Ingenuity I – 90%: almost always useful for lvl70 recipes, at least to improve Synthesis actions.
5. Innovation – 90%: always used to buff the last Touch action before Byregot’s Blessing plus Byregot itself (unless recipe is lvl68-, which can be easily crafted without much tricks).
6. Muscle Memory – 85%: it’s fast and reliable, so unless you can make something in just 3 Careful Synthesis II or less, you should start with it.
7. Careful Synthesis II – 50%: if you don’t need Careful Synthesis III, why waste CPs?
8. Piece by Piece – 20%: used in 70**+ crafts only, the rest can be done with Careful Synthesis II / III (unless your eq is crap).
9. Hasty Touch – 10%: substitute to Hasty Touch II when you don’t have enough CPs.
10. Reclaim – well, everyone makes mistakes, me included. At least you get materials back if you forgot to drink fresh tea before another craft, so you have to keep this thingie in shared hotbar, I think.11+12. Maker’s Mark / Flawless Synthesis – 5%: “the last resort – use when everything else fails” actions; they require too much rl time, so I used it for Rakshasa crafts only (which are mostly useless now) – the rest can be easily crafted even from NQ base mats using Muscle Memory (unless your eq is crap, once again). Just put it in tab of multiclass skills when needed – most classes have 1 to 4 empty slots in this tab anyway, so you can replace Muscle Memory (and Hasty Touch in case of LTW which has no useful endgame multiclass skills) with these two.
– Manipulation I: useful until lvl64 in 40 durability [material] crafts, obsolete upon receiving Manipulation II.
– Waste Not I: useful until lvl35-49 in 40 durability [material] crafts, while you don’t have enough CPs to use Manipulation I, obsolete after that.
– Careful Synthesis I: useful until lvl49, obsolete upon receiving Careful Synthesis II.
– Rumination: useful until lvl49, while you don’t have Byregot’s Blessing; 100% obsolete after that. I personally use it at low levels for a single purpose: to turn Inner Quiet charges into CPs at the end of craft to cast Ingenuity I before Synthesis actions (as in most cases I skip Synthesis until the end).
– Tricks of the Trade – I don’t use it at all, as almost every my sequence contains at least one replaceable Basic Touch, and in most cases I use Precise Touch instead of it. 1 extra charge of Inner Quiet is WAY better bonus than pitiful 20 CP.
– Rapid Synthesis: unreliable = useless.
– Waste Not II: ever useless. There are no crafts with 8 durability-consuming actions in the row, so part of this skill charges would always go to waste.Now the rest (class-specific) skills:
13. Inner Quiet – 100%: ever useful. Period. It’s +20% power to every following Touch per charge, you know?
14. Great Strides – 100%: ever useful. Period. Always used to buff Byregot’s Blessing; sometimes also the last Touch action (if you can afford the CP cost).
15. Prudent Touch – 100%: ever useful. Period. The best ever possible ability to amass Inner Quiet charges. It’s safe to have at least one Prudent Touch in every craft, as it comes virtually for no durability “price”; in most cases I just have odd number of Prudents in my crafts (up to as many as 9).
16. Basic Touch – 95%: almost ever useful, since beginning until the end. In endgame crafts acts as placeholder for Precise Touch (if you can afford its durability cost, otherwise you have to resort to using Hasty Touch II).
17. Manipulation II – 95%: the best existing durability-restoring action atm.
18. Careful Synthesis III – 75%: often useful once-twice-trice when Careful Synthesis II is not enough.
19. Hasty Touch II – 25%: sometimes used when not enough CPs to use Basic Touch.
20. Initial Preparations – 15%: specialists only, otherwise it a) costs too much for its unreliable bonus, and the most important b) occupies skill #1 in the sequence which should be reserved for Muscle Memory more often than not.
21. Reflect – see above.
21. Observe – 5%: I’ve got just a single non-specialist craft which needs something to fill an empty spot in Comfort Zone sequence before using the second Comfort Zone, and lacks exactly 1 CP without it.
22. Steady Hand I – 10%: seldom used when crafting ilvl380 gear to buff Piece by Piece or crafting tons of midlevel collectables (Loquat, Buckwheat and so on) using the shortest possible 8-key sequences.
23. Standard Touch – 5%: see the latter part of the above.
24. Collectable Synthesis.
– Master’s Mend II – useful until lvl64, obsolete upon receiving Manipulation II.
– Master’s Mend I – useless, except for levels below 15 (after that use Waste Not I for 40dur crafts, and Manipulation I or better Master’s Mend II for the rest).
– Basic Synthesis – useless, except for levels below 15. Dixi (which means: NO, I’m NOT going to participate in “Basic vs Careful I Synthesis” flamewar, because reliability is everything to me).
– Patient Touch – unreliable = useless.
– Focused Synthesis – useless (too high relative cost compared to Piece by Piece / Careful Synthesis III + waste of Ingenuity charges).
– Focused Touch – ever useless, compared to Steady Hand II + Prudent Touch combo.Did I miss something?
/discuss-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
Most of it makes sense, but there are exceptions. First, I just don’t understand these percentages (i.e. these are percentages of WHAT?),
https://miqobot.com/forum/forums/topic/stormblood-upgrade-stage-2/#post-5502
Read from this post downwards.
Read from this post downwards.
I read it long ago, yet never understood this part: “if crafting rotation would be 100% optimal, how much value would each action contribute”. Contribute in comparison to WHAT, excuse me? To bare class-specific abilities?
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Gray.
How much each of them would contribute to the 100% HQ you can reach, compared to not having them at all is my guess.
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by
zgo63925.
New Hasty Touch II does not require a cross class slot, but old Hasty Touch is still better in performance.
While it seems that 90% success rate is better than 80%, the extra cost of 5 CP makes a big difference. Considering that Steady Hand II must be present for both skills, HT costs 5 CP per step and HT2 costs 10 CP per step.
Total CP consumption is doubled. Additional 10% rate is not enough to justify this change.Also, this part (from the same topic mentioned, which is closed for replies) is questionable. Well, it might be correct in case of the sequence which does not include any durability-restoring actions; otherwise (i.e. in 95% cases) you have to add these to calculations as well! Let’s take Basic Touch as an example: it wastes 10 dur, which means (in terms of Manipulation II) 96/8*2 = 24 CP spent to restore them. This means total cost per effect received:
Basic Touch = 18 + 5 (Steady Hand II / 5) + 24 (Manipulation II / 4) = 47 CP per 100% quality.
Now let’s calculate the same value for higher level skills:
Standard Touch = 32 + 4.4 (Steady Hand I / 5) + 24 = 60.4 per 125%, or 48.32 per 100%.
Advanced Touch = 48 + 4.4 + 24 = 76.4 / 1.5 = 51 per 100%.
Hasty Touch = 0 + 5 + 24 = 29 per 100% with 80% reliability ~= 29 per 80% = 36.25 per 100%.
Hasty Touch II = 5 + 5 + 24 = 34 per 90% ~= 37.(7) per 100%.
Prudent Touch = 21 + 5 + 12 (Manipulation II / 8) = 38 per 100%.So, as you can see, while “old” touches can be forgotten (except for using Precise Touch instead of Basic Touch), difference in CP cost relative to quality received between Hasty and Prudent is negligible. Now that you take into account that Prudent Touch also builds stack of Inner Quiet twice as fast compared to either of Hasty, you should realize that it’s Prudent Touch which is the best quality-building skill of Stormblood, not Hasty Touch!
So, as you can see, while “old” touches can be forgotten (except for using Precise Touch instead of Basic Touch), difference in CP cost relative to quality received between Hasty and Prudent is negligible. Now that you take into account that Prudent Touch also builds stack of Inner Quiet twice as fast compared to either of Hasty, you should realize that it’s Prudent Touch which is the best quality-building skill of Stormblood, not Hasty Touch!
It’s patient touch, not prudent touch and you pretty much agree with me. Patient outperforms Hasty, as Miqo themselfs said.
How much each of them would contribute to the 100% HQ you can reach, compared to not having them at all is my guess.
Compared to not having WHAT? Not having any abilities at all? Well heh, as long as you are able to finish the craft, you get infinity percent of contribution compared to not having abilities at all 🙂
Or does that mean percentage of additional quality gained when using a single given multiclass ability compared to not having any multiclass, just class specific? But, then, once again: compared to which class-specific? Basic AAR, or HW/SB included?
Also I disagree alot with your “useless” abilities, observe is mandatory to allign finishers with good quality
o_O What? Can I see an example of such a sequence?
patient touch outperforms hasty touch.
As I’ve said before, I’m not going to discuss non-reliable abilities. I seldom use even Hasty touches because of this reason… let alone something as dangerous as Patient.
And in general my question was which abilities are never ever used, not by miqo, not by macros, not by manual crafting.
Used by whom? Miqo uses lots of abilities, some players might use them as well… which, still, does not necessarily make these abilities any good. If you want to have just 2 class-specific tabs, you have to sacrifice something, you know… and I’d say: let’s sacrifice unreliable ones!
o_O What? Can I see an example of such a sequence?
This obviously only applies to manual crafting or Miqo crafting, you can estimate the odds of a good condition based on how many times you didn’T get it, I do not know if a pity timer is involved but for me Miqo very often accurately predicts good conditions. It uses Great Strides, Steady Hand 2, then either adds in a Careful Synth or Observe and uses Blessing on the good condition, its not a guarantee but a good boost.
It’s patient touch, not prudent touch and you pretty much agree with me. Patient outperforms Hasty, as Miqo themselfs said.
… I’m lost. Prudent Touch is a thing which costs 21 CP and 5 dur, and it rocks; Patient Touch costs 6 CP and 10 dur, has 50% reliability, extra very dangerous effect of halving stack of Inner, and thus sucks. Are you sure you agree with me?…
Patient outperforms Hasty, as Miqo themselfs said.
Maybe (=nfc), but Miqo devs also said that:
Hasty Touch: 29.6%
Hasty Touch II: 21.5%
Patient Touch: 41.5%
Patient Touch vs HT2: 25.9%
Patient Touch vs HT+HT2: 19.4%
Prudent Touch: 12.2%which is plain wrong, unless you never use Manipulation. Prudent Touch just can’t be outperformed by either of Hasty Touches!
its not a guarantee but a good boost.
It can’t be “good boost” if it’s not guaranteed. Remember that Good+ appears just once per 5 steps, while you get just 2 chances to launch a Good conditioned Byregot before Great Strides wears off. Though, in case you won’t get as lucky, you waste 14 CPs AND 2 charges of Steady Hand 2! I’d rather use it for Innovation… granted, it gives just 1.5 higher effect compared to 2x higher condition-related, but at least this is a guaranteed outcome, which is enough in 100% cases (at least, during the last 2.5 months I play the game).
which is plain wrong, unless you never use Manipulation. Prudent Touch just can’t be outperformed by either of Hasty Touches!
Besides it is not. CP is the most valuable stat. If you always go for 100% success rate abilities you will craft very inefficient.
Hasty Touch is so good because it does not use any CP, which in turn allows for more durability increases, which overall provides considerably more HQ% than Prudent, thats also why Tricks of Trade is a core ability. CP CP CP.
When using Patient Touch the odds are heavily in your favor since stack halving is rounded up. That aside crafting using hasty touch does not rely on perfect RNG, even with sub average RNG you outperform 100% Success crafting sequences. And in the case of the worst of the worst of the worst RNG, thats why you have reclaim.If you always go for 100% success rate abilities you will craft very inefficient.
I wonder how can crafting 99.8% HQ stuff out of NQ mats can ever be inefficient %)
Hasty Touch is so good because it does not use any CP, which in turn allows for more durability increases…
… until you run out of durability, which is quite fast. And then you will have to restore it twice where I restore it just once. And you will have to spend CP restoring it! CP CP CP!
Ah, whatever. I.e. use whatever you want. Still, my math is above, and I have yet to see any better math…
-
This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.