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1. There is a free addon out there already with a plugin that grabs the lowest price and takes off a certain amount and copies that to the clipboard so you can just paste in the number when you update your prices. They claim this isnāt botting and that the addon/plugin isnāt illegal but Iāve seen a MASSIVE change to the market
If you mean the XL plugin, all it does is lower by -1 unless it can be edited. Shouldnāt impact so much unless it trigger people so hard that they just dump the prices?
It can be modified to reduce the price by any amount you desire, not just by 1. People will often use a random number so that people can’t just click on the + or – by the side but must check the price again then adjust it. It’s a big problem on items that sell fast as its clear that some are using something else in addition to this to automate the process. I am unable to believe that a person can update the prices 10+ times an hour, for more than 16 hours a day over a period longer than a week. Even putting aside then automation aspect, it’s just an ever increasing MB arms race. Those who don’t have that addon will suffer on fast selling items because they have to get the number, remember it, type it in correctly – the amount the wish to undercut by, whereas addon users just go to the history, paste and done. The point I’m making is that its such a small small change but even that amount of automation has made a huge difference to the MB and who gets the majority of sales.
I agree with Talith, automating the mb is a terrible idea which will be damaging to the community as a whole.
The marketboard is already in a pretty bad shape when you are trying to sell things, adding an automation feature on Miqo would only make it worse for everyone : casual players and serious crafters.
Even with only a small undercut value, the automated aspect means that anyone who is not using the tool is at a very serious disadvantage because inherently the marketboard is a competitive environment.It would lead to :
(1) an unhealthy situation where you are struggling to sell things the legit way as your opponents are cheating
(2) an increase of RMT activity because people struggle to make gils
(3) more people looking for mb bots to be able to compete, aggravating the situation exponentially and leading to a higher risk of SE reacting accordingly on bots and 3rd party toolsYes, I know some tools already to that. I’m also aware SE recently acted on it and issued a mass banwave on them.
There are communities documenting botting behavior, who organize and provide mass reports to SE.
Everyone is monitoring the situation.
You don’t want to add another instance of this problem and make SE add protections to their game, destroying both plugins and bots, because they can 100% do it if the situation becomes very bad.
Bots should help automate some of the boring to make the game more enjoyable. They should not deteriorate the whole experience and make non-botting players miserable due to the lazyness of a few ones.I, too, would like to discourage the implementation of automated lowering of prices. I urge the Miqobot developers to NOT include this feature. I think it’s a terrible idea that would easily damage the market and would cause the game developers to investigate and put Miqobot at risk.
We already saw what happened with PvP recently. Apparently, people were botting in PvP and the game developers took notice. Now, who knows what solution the developers will implement? The developers of those other bots were irresponsible and now will face the consequences of less business. I know Miqo doesn’t do PvP but she could still be affected by whatever the developers come up with.
Thus far, Miqobot developers have made very responsible decisions, such as not supporting PvP, in order to keep Miqo under the radar and I applaud and appreciate this behavior. I encourage Miqobot developers to stay on course with this ideology.
Even if the fact that this is a terrible idea somehow doesn’t sway people, the arguments in favour that I’ve seen are basically either “but I want it” (you can already do it with other means) and “but you’ll lose business to another bot that implements it” (then stop complaining and go use that other bot if it’s so much better /s) and frankly, this is up there with botting OWC and the MSQ on the list of terrible ideas. Nothing against the OP for opening the discussion, I have no issues with “is this possible” or even “what do you all think about this?”, but the replies have covered time and again why this is a bad idea.
And as if that’s not enough, the idea of implementing server-side enforced restrictions is frankly laughable. The userbase is large enough that people will never agree on the details, and there’ll always be those who try to circumvent it. Especially since “I already paid for the license and feature, I should be allowed to use it!” too.
I accidentally crashed a whole materia market once, and even weeks later it still hadn’t recovered – that was just by vendor-buying like 60 materia and putting it all up for sale at once. The prices tanked from five digits to three, and I didn’t even undercut. You really want to add automation to that? If you’re spending any time actually playing the game, you’ll lose money. And if you aren’t, then why are you paying for a subscription and a bot?
So the question is: How exactly is this any different from undercutting without a bot?
Instead of using the Market Board you now use a tool, but since itās public you have to assume that everybody uses the same tool.This is the wrong question based on a wrong argument.
It’s not about “having the lowest price at a specific moment in time”, it’s about “Having the lowest price all the time until a specified minimum price has been reached”. In other words, it’s not about setting the lowest price one time, you can indeed do that without a bot. But a minute later a bot will set the lowest price to “-1” to yours. The problem is actually other bots that monitor their prices 24/7 which you can’t beat unless you use a bot too. As a (currently) non-ff14-botter I actually face this problem at the moment, even if I change the price of all my items on all my retainers, by the time I reached my 2nd retainer the prices I adjusted on the first one have been set to “-1”.
I, too, would like to discourage the implementation of automated lowering of prices. I urge the Miqobot developers to NOT include this feature. I think itās a terrible idea that would easily damage the market and would cause the game developers to investigate and put Miqobot at risk.
“easily damage the market” is an overstatement as this already happens, price battles between multiple people and multiple botters until a minimum price is reached. As this minimum price doesn’t depend on hours spent manually farming (like I do currently) but on “what do I want to have as minimum daily turnover while my bot did the gathering/crafting”.
“put Miqobot at risk” is a sine-qua-non as SE isn’t interested in any specific bot, there is no locally running bot detection system.
There are a number of these kind of remarks in this thread which are frankly intelligible. Why ? Because if SE implements “whatever” to combat this, all injection based programs will suffer, including the ones that had an ideology of not implementing “marketbots”.
Now, my suggestion/conclusion:
Create the needed routines to do retainer automation (so NOT just adjusting prices) and do it in a responsible undetectable way (slow it down to human speed, every price adjustment taking a reasonable time like 10 secs). The reasons for not doing this are purely imagined, there are already bots outhere that do this. The truth of the matter is that most botters just use 2 bots now, Miqo/MMOxxxx AND the marketbot when they are in selling mode. Tbh. evidence of using whatever bot like Miqo is found pretty fast after the marketbot has been found out based on its stupid non-human routines and adjusting all prices on all retainers in less than a minute. Currently it would actually be “safer” for Miqo to implement a human-speed marketboard bot system in order to not get “caught” because people use Miqo + an unresponsible marketbot.
Anyways, I’m looking into botting ff14 currently, the arguments in this thread are completely besides the point. They actually feel like misinformation in order to prevent competition for the people using Miqo together with the marketing bots. The reason why I think this is because if you are seriously trying to make gil in ff14 using gather/crafting bots you know that the EW 2star item market (eg. classical gear) is controlled by marketbots atm. You can’t make gil if you can’t sell your Miqo bot-crafted items because someone else is “marketbotting”… Anyone using Miqo for gathering/crafting wants to sell their items, no1 pays for a subscription based bot “just” to prevent 15 mins/day gathering/crafting. Than not being able to sell the crafted stuff (while paying bot sub) makes the marketbot “needed”…
Your points may be valid in general. But the context youre applying them for is outdated.
EW 2star item market (eg. classical gear)
580 gear is outdated. It was relevant 3 weeks ago when the new raid tier was released. The world first race is finished and everybody has grinded enough tomestones to forget about 580.
You canāt make gil if you canāt sell your Miqo bot-crafted items because someone else is āmarketbottingāā¦
Its a biased perception of supply and demand.
Your items dont sell not because someone undercuts you by 1 gil. Your items dont sell because nobody needs such a ridiculous amount. Crafting is very easy so everybody does it but there are no consumers to buy the product. Even if you start using an undercutting bot it wont bring more consumers to the market. It will only crash the market faster.(slow it down to human speed, every price adjustment taking a reasonable time like 10 secs)
When you adjust prices your items dont sell. If you spend too much time adjusting you can miss out on a potential customer.
all injection based programs
Miqo is not injection based.
no1 pays for a subscription based bot ājustā to prevent 15 mins/day gathering/crafting
I do.
580 gear is outdated. It was relevant 3 weeks ago when the new raid tier was released. The world first race is finished and everybody has grinded enough tomestones to forget about 580.
That’s completely irrelevant. The only valid point here is to have the lowest price at the moment someone comes looking. The lowest price is determined by who adjusted the price to the lowest one last up until the minimum desired price is reached. I still want to sell 1 or 2 of each classical weapon in a market where a lot of weapons still sell 10-20 pcs/day @ approx 75-95k.
Its a biased perception of supply and demand.
Your items dont sell not because someone undercuts you by 1 gil. Your items dont sell because nobody needs such a ridiculous amount. Crafting is very easy so everybody does it but there are no consumers to buy the product. Even if you start using an undercutting bot it wont bring more consumers to the market. It will only crash the market faster.My items don’t sell because I haven’t got the lowest price at the moment they come looking. Why don’t I have the lowest price ? Because an undercutting bot made it so. When their listed lowest price items are gone they are just replaced by their new ones. The market won’t crash the way you propose because even a botter has a minimum price, the only thing that will happen is that other people will stop posting (end their current posting to make room on retainer) for that item, the price will come back up but the bot will continue to have the lowest price and dominate it.
Amounts of the item don’t matter, only the lowest price 10 items matter… And for an undercutting bot only the lowest price matters, continually refreshed with a new item if their previous one is sold.
FF14 mb (as a botter) isn’t governed by supply & demand, it’s governed by who is fast enough to offer enough items within demand turnaround at the lowest price. My perception isn’t biased, after studying the ff14 market system, the above conclusions are in fact non-biased but highly accurate.
When you adjust prices your items dont sell. If you spend too much time adjusting you can miss out on a potential customer.
The 10 seconds your listing doesn’t sell doesn’t compare with the fact that you need to manually adjust until you give up because an undercutting bot did a “-1” for their operator on all their items in that category. Not adjusting your price just makes it that you don’t sell. So what’s your solution here ? š
Miqo is not injection based.
Tbh. I don’t know, it is indeed possible that Miqobot only does memory/file reads and operates everything by mouse/keyboard events. At any rate, it’s quite unimportant as the only available bot detection on SE’s side is log-2-server reporting mainly on timings afaik.
I do.
And I have a gym subscription though I never go to the gym anymore. That doesn’t change the fact that people would say “No1 pays for the gym if they don’t work out”. It just means you’re the exception that validates the rule…
It just means youāre the exception that validates the ruleā¦
If doing combat content with Miqo is the exception then yea i am.
But you missed my point.Crafting 580 gear is easy so everybody does it. Youre asking Miqo to implement a public undercutting bot for all users. Its almost certain that some of them craft on your server and compete with you. Youre asking not for a personal advantage but to make the undercutting bot available to everyone. How will it help you to sell your weapons?
I was actually trying to give my opinion on:
We consider this feature, but we are not sure whether it will be really useful. The problem is quite easy to explain, and itās not even about market domination (which is also a factor but not the main one).
So the question is: How exactly is this any different from undercutting without a bot?
Instead of using the Market Board you now use a tool, but since itās public you have to assume that everybody uses the same tool.We would like to hear more feedback from our users.
How would you solve this dilemma?The answer to that can be found in my first reply above, it’s not about setting your the lowest price once, it’s about making sure your price is always the lowest price at any time until your lowest comfortable price is reached.
From a commercial standpoint there is no reason for Miqobot not to implement an “undercut bot”. If there are “detection” concerns than those can be handled by ensuring the Miqobot version implements “human like behavior” and sell that as a “feature” in opposition to the current most popular undercut-bot which isn’t that hard for SE to detect due to “unhuman speed”. Miqobot could “limit” distribution by demanding a higher price (current best undercut bot is $6/month) for this feature.
The advantage for the Miqobot user is that Miqobot can ensure the retainer automation (and undercut) features run together with the features the bot currently has for crafting/gathering.
Now back to your specific question, to which the answer is:
Sure, if it’s only about me having a competitive advantage I would take the current undercut bot and run it with the appropriate safe settings. I would surely not have a discussion about it on the miqobot forum as that would give other people ideas that imply a competitive danger for me.
My question to you however is, why would someone (or you yourself) be opposed to creating this feature in Miqobot unless their competitive advantage would be in danger ? A whole lot of reasons in this old thread are invalid because an undercut bot actually already exists, all this “market damage” fluff reasoning is moot since it came into existance. Even if it is not implemented by Miqobot, the market will or won’t be damaged by people using Miqo and the undercut bot nonetheless, there is no going back…
finally:
Crafting 580 gear is easy so everybody does it.
Well, judging from the fact that all the 580 gear weapons still sell approx 10 items/day per weapon, I would like a piece of that action. At the moment this is still the best money to be made through crafting (that is attainable for everyone without rng) if you can actually sell. Also don’t forget the new gear coming in 6.1, the undercut bots are already there.
Maybe we should agree to disagree on this subject ? I’ve tried to give my reasoning why the feature would be OK. Even though there might have been reasons in the past for not implementing it, the cat is out of the bag. I haven’t seen a logical reason why you would care (seeing you only use the combat features).
You should read and get more into the community, the MB is not made to work with undercuttings, we are suppose to put the item at the same price as the lowest it will put you in first anyway. Undercutting is wrong use of the MB.
Also crafting communities already think people bot prices down, to the point that when someone feel personally attacked they dump pricess buy cheap and resell or all together crash it just becuase of the “bot”. I have seen this several times on diff discord groups.
Creating a real bot that does this will only wrong the community even more and put all similar systems like this on a hot spot, which is unnecesary.
There is a tool that already copies -1 of the prices on the MB, penny something, look it up.
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This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by
UserNameNotRegistered.
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This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by
You should read and get more into the community, the MB is not made to work with undercuttings, we are suppose to put the item at the same price as the lowest it will put you in first anyway. Undercutting is wrong use of the MB.
It’s rich to be told to “read and get more into the community” by someone on a botting forum… Really…
Undercutting is actually the name of the game on the MB, you do know that that FF14 is called the -1 game, right ? Right ?Also crafting communities already think people bot prices down, to the point that when someone feel personally attacked they dump pricess buy cheap and resell or all together crash it just becuase of the ābotā. I have seen this several time on diff discord groups.
And they are actually right when it comes down to undercut bots of which you seem to think don’t exist (?) Your enrage example btw. also occurs but more when someone undercuts with several 1000’s of even several 10k’s. Again, you seem a little “enraged” because of this while on a botting forum. Weird…
Creating a real bot that does this will only wrong the community even more and put all similar systems like this on a hot spot, which is unnecesary.
These bot(s) already exist, they do not need to be created. They already existed in WOW and other games, the influx from WOW to FF14 made sure there is a buying public for them, especially since undercutting -1 is the culture on FF14 and there are no fees related to changing your price or posting an item, only with the actual sell. And again, are you telling people in this community that you are gathering with a bot ? I guess bots in general actually hurt “the crafting community” more in terms of ethics. I suppose the fact we’re on this forum we should not take that specific high road…
There is a tool that already copies -1 of the prices on the MB, penny something, look it up.
You obviously haven’t read anything I’ve written… Penny pincer is a manual Dalamud plugin that still requires you to access all listings on all your retainers manually. How is this going to help against an undercut bot which monitors the prices ?
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This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by
theamon.
From a commercial standpoint there is no reason for Miqobot not to implement an āundercut botā.
Ah i see. Well from a commercial standpoint i totally agree with you. All your points are valid and make sense.
But Miqo team said many times that they dont care about maximizing profits or things like that. They just like the game and try to make it better for common players. And they will not sell optional features for special prices either. Gilsellers and botfarms are not the target audience.
My question to you however is, why would someone (or you yourself) be opposed to creating this feature in Miqobot
Im not. I support this idea. Its always good to have more features.
I just dont think that it will be as useful for players as new combat rotations or new dungeons support. In my opinion its a low priority quality of life.I havenāt seen a logical reason why you would care (seeing you only use the combat features).
My only reason is that if Miqo starts working on undercutting bot they will stop working on combat features. Thats it.
Anyway its always nice to have an alternative opinion. Its been a pleasure.
But Miqo team said many times that they dont care about maximizing profits or things like that. They just like the game and try to make it better for common players. And they will not sell optional features for special prices either. Gilsellers and botfarms are not the target audience.
Ah OK, I see now where you’re coming from and the reasoning the Miqo team has on it. I respect such an opinion though me as a common player at the moment (not botting FF14, yet…) is already having difficulties with undercutting bots. A paid product such as Miqobot eventually has to produce proof of relevancy if having retainer automation features becomes relevant.
These might seem like strong or even offending words, they are not meant as such. I’m a hyper realistic person forged in the economic fires of real life, I don’t kid around when it’s about my time or my money…
Tnx. again for your kind replies, glad we came to see each other’s position.
Im sorry if my comment sound cocky to you. I was giving my opion based on my knowledge of the subject as one usually do in this posts.
Also is funny being judge by botting by someone asking for a bottong feature lmao.
I did not knew this bots were already out there, in that case your previuos answer makes a lot more sense to me. And you are right. From the competitive point fo view its a disadvantage not to be able to automate it on that way.
And the price model you mention, could help direct specific resources to the side development of the feature, however that would depend on the devs I guess.
I stand corrected.
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This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by
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